From the Dialogue Between Chris and Brian about Capitalism , Free Will andSpirituality and Zaadz (Brian Links to this From His Blog, which is how I came to post the following, first in response to cameron, then to the thread in general.98 days later cameron said:
what a load of bollocks well, it's good to see that the ego is alive and well in a conversation about 'spirituality'. why not just STOP and recognise that there is NOWHERE that consciousness is not the ONLY THING that has an opinion on ANYTHING is the mind and as such, any idea of right or wrong, is inherently false capitalism itself is just another idea - and, in the general consensus of what that idea means, it would be reasonable to consider that it has failed but an idea, is only an idea f**k capitalism, f**k socialism, f**k spirituality and every other idea ideas are not reality there - i'm done storming the temple goodsoul :
105 days later (7 days after cameron posted) Most Comical Goodsoul said:
Without implying disrespect, because none is implied or expressed, and because I find relevance on whole, I would like you, cameron, to indulge a mental exercise: what would your response be (now work with me here) if I promised to pay you in three days the sum of what you loan me today and tomorrow, if you loan me $2 today, $2 tomorrow, and on the third day, I tell you any opinion you may have about whether the sum I pay equals the sum of 2+2 is inherently false, ergo you should be satisfied with whatever sum I pay?
John R. Searle (Consciousness and Language) discusses consciousness and intentionality at length in the title referenced and others. Its much too involved to detail here, but it likely has significant bearing on this entire thread (which I have enjoyed enormously and humbly thank all for their frankness and intellectual integrity). I suspect Searle would suggest that all of our expressions support varying degrees of authenticity, based on the degree to which such expressions may be relied upon as a legitimate representation of intent, and the degree to which my right to your respect and trust entitles you to mine.
I think much of the exchange between Brian and Chris bears this out. My best definition of reality, although dating back some 30 years, is this: “Nothing stays the same; everything else must change.”
Admitting certain lack of eloquence, this serves never-the-less to distinguish that which is real from that which is not real by requiring real things to possess some degree of orderliness which is to some degree transforming over time, however gradual the loss of coherence in the system (if there were not some degree of orderliness, we would have no basis by which to discern any transformation).
Linguistically, the negation is straight-forward and accurate: only “nothing” may persist in immutable form (although, orders of magnitude of “everything” is an interesting digression (google Cantor)).
Even scientifically, this assessment holds up. While it is stipulated that energy can neither be gained or lost (1st Law of thermodynamics) it is always changing form (2nd law).
How is any of this relevant to the idea of capitalism, or other socially endorsed forms of economic reality?
Here, cameron and I find some common ground. It is in the nature of language that the size of the gap between stated opinion and stated fact depends on the linguistic precision with which one might convey the expected behavior of a dynamical system, or that which is real. At minimum, any stipulation of right or wrong should require a common framework for understanding, and evaluation of that accuracy should demand close scrutiny of the logic underlying any inferences that might be relied upon to advance a position.
After all, language is a highly evolved and evolving (therefore real) tool for exchanging information about our environment. From rudimentary, however relevant grunts and groans, to the elegant precision in the language of mathematics, we rely on our ability to exchange information for our very survival. I believe the relevance of Zaadz is implicit when dialogue is elevated to the level I have found in this instance, and in many other exchanges in and around the Zaadz community.
Indeed, Zaadz and its entire business plan is a highly legitimate response to the current geo-political environment, even if profit were the only underlying motive even if that motive was obfuscated or blatantly misleading (which it clearly is not).
We live in a society that embraces capitalism and to deride that motive efficaciously, one should first look askance at Country Clubs of Worship taking separation of Church and State to the highest level of tax-avoidance possible. Question, are missionaries the duped advance of corporate egress into cheap labor markets? But I digress.
The legitimization of the Zaadz business plan, or any business plan is, in my mind, an integral function of free-market behavior, the premise of which is that those who recognize a need and fulfill it efficiently deserve reward. Take that as inferential, but the logic is born out in as much as the execution of the Zaadz plan remains responsive to the demand of consumers (in this case, users being the ones that both are and largely create the very product they consume). Thus, Zaadz sells an opportunity and delivers it to whoever is willing to expend their resources, in one form or another, competing against whatever lesser valued opportunities such consumers might not otherwise forego.
Would that others profit from something less noble then promoting the free exchange of ideas to address an environment in need of creative, committed and concerned individuals albeit, some may be looking only for a date, or worse, a business opportunity?
Another perspective that cameron drives into the exchange is this: we risk miscommunication altogether or mind-mucking ourselves when we attribute capitalism as a system with an intentionality of its own. This is the same argument of gun-control advocates who would control the intention of a murderer by focusing on the behavior of a device.
Harry, in Murray Schisgal's play LUV says, “Words are like a thousand pebbles bouncing around the inside of an empty tin can.” I hear a lot of pebbles, and many are mine. So I will close with the supposition that began this thread.
Chris said, “Anything that co-opts free will for its own purposes, however benign, however altruistic – is not and cannot be in service to the living truth of Being, simply because free will is its measure, and for Being to be realized in its truth, free will must be supported for its own sake.
If I interpret correctly, the depiction closely parallels the Christian stipulation that God resides in the Kingdom of Heaven (the living truth of Being), and endowed human beings with both dominion over all other creatures i.e. evolution’s top rung, and free will.
A fortunate first couple named Adam and Eve lived in a beautiful garden. There was only one rule, which was to stay away from a particular tree in the middle of the garden lest they consume the fruit of knowledge. One day, a serpent appeared and talked Eve into making off with a piece of forbidden fruit, and seeking an accomplice, talked Adam into taking the first bite.
This was not good, as both Adam and Eve fell from grace, which is to say they became self-aware, whereas before, they had no thought to give to any particular consequences. God was not happy. They were cast out of paradise and now nearly 2040 years later, to avoid burning eternally in hellfire and damnation people must not kill, maim or otherwise cause bodily harm to others (unless you suspect they have WMD or you live in Texas where we all pack heat).
Similarly, one can also care about others, within reason, go to communal structure and sing and pray and maybe get in to heaven (otherwise Being will not be realized in its truth).
I intend to not belittle Chris' expression or a Christian perspective - my hands are together flat as I bow to all in honor of the correctness of their own choosing. I have another path and that works for me: only through faith will to each be revealed, each according to their purpose, the work that we must do together for the good of all. Be nice! I didn’t say anything about faith in what, or whom. Remember, you all know but agreed not to tell me.
One fellow (sadly departed way to young) said it most memorably for me. He called it the choice-less rightness of it all. The point is, that if through faith we believe that nothing, absolutely nothing happens by chance, we will relinquish “free will” as an illusion born of ego.
We will comprehend that our only volition is how we experience each moment, and even that choice is not one we make in the sense of predicting alternative outcomes: it is simply a choice between discovering each moment, that which is real; or, creating a reality of our own - which is the interpretive, subjective and unstable mindscape that drives terminal uniqueness at the personal level and all of the perceived ills of mankind, including capitalism at its worst, at the universal level.
Luckily for you fine folks, I’m out of pebbles. But there is room in the can. So shake it up and throw some in. (No, don’t take them out and throw them at anyone.)
Blezzings to, and wishing all a profoundly great day!
The Most Comical Ambazzidor Goodsoul